I think not only of his researches, his teachings, and his endeavors in the political sphere. You can't think during the conference any more, and there isn't really time for a full exchange of reactions or for full discussion. Your profession was leader, major, and captain. And I said at that time that it is much too complicated. I wonder— the positron and pair creation thing is not what you meant? But he had a lightness in his approach and a directness which had been missing in Sommerfeld, and so I asked that I be permitted to return there the next year and the Rockefeller Foundation granted me an extension of my fellowship. So there was that group working on extensions of the shell model. This was so completely different from the German scene. So now it’s a question perhaps of dealing with nuclear physics and with some specific points. Getting back for a minute to your visit to Fermi, you said that he became interested at the time while you were there; and I think it would be interesting to talk about that because you said your own interest really didn't get started in a strong way until about two years later. But of course on our walks we might have discussed the progress of the war quite a lot, but certainly on the walks on which I went, there was very little general nuclear physics. Extensive research must be done followed by actual evidence and experiments to back up your theories. In fact, it's so weak that there are no stable nuclei with mass 5. I should have been even fonder because it is now believed that it is the reaction in the sun—the dominant reaction in the sun. And what was your feeling about the shell model before it was in vogue and later on—during this long gap between its original vogue and its resurrection? d. Phys. It is not directly nuclear physics, but it is a tool for the investigation of nuclear physics. For the record, is it historically correct that Marshak and Sudarshan were the first to analyze the data and show that the only consistent picture would result if the interaction were chosen as vector axial-vector interaction? It has been at times applied to strong interactions, the interaction of mesons with nucleons; at times to electromagnetic; very rarely to weak interactions, the beta decay interaction. There's a nucleus in the atom, and this nucleus will hold the electrons and more or less automatically they will tend to form spherical shells. It was much too detailed because the information at that time really didn't warrant such detailed studies. Let us keep that up into the next millennium. When you take pseudo-scalar mesons, as people later did, they got the correct sign, assuming exchange both of charged and neutral mesons. This implied that it was a rather close relationship. 3. Was the type of contribution you had made in this generally recognized? All the experimenters went to war work of some sort or other. How did you react to the discovery? Then I returned to Germany in June or so of '32, spent a couple of months in Munich and then got an appointment. I don't believe it was the principal motive or even a very strong motive. In 1943, circumstances of war caused Bohr to flee from Copenhagen to London, where he became a consultant of the British government for atomic weapons development, in which, however, he only played a minor role. Bohr made the announcements, and Fermi was there, and, strange, our list doesn't show you. And because of this, the binding of the next nucleon, nucleon number 5, is extremely weak. No. And other people, particularly Jerry Brown and his collaborators, have treated finite nuclei by the same method, and there is every reason to hope at this point that we are on the right track and that this theory, which was started by Brueckner, when properly applied, can be used to calculate the properties of the low-lying energy levels of any nucleus. Ten days earlier he had sent a letter to the Science Faculty of his university which begins as follows.1, “I hereby request the Faculty to work for the establishment of an institute for theoretical physics, where the necessary conditions can be created for the growth of this subject here in Denmark. Was this articulated and discussed or was it just felt by everyone? It had been used previously, but I think we did it a little better. No, I don't remember where he was but he was not here. I didn't think so. Or did it only come after 1947 when, in fact, the different type of meson was discovered? This was late '30s. I should say that there are the university vacations in March and April in the German universities. However, repeated/weak measurements offer at least hope (a Hippie style dream?) So when I said before that proton-proton forces and proton- neutron forces are equal, they are equal when you use the neutron- proton forces in the spin 0 state. So in this sense perhaps, coming back to something you asked during lunch, we are coming to a resolution of the problems of nuclear structure. I would like to ask a question as it relates to that. Can you tell us just a little bit more about the circumstances? So it took—I don't remember exactly—till September or so to write it up. I was hoping that the strict idea of nucleon shells was not quite right, but that one had to allow some leeway. It is very likely that it was about nuclear physics. In 1633, the Pope ordered for the house arrest of Galileo owing to his work in astronomy. He did. I have the record of 1939. Another nucleus would have the reverse phenomenon. There was a lot of Japanese work. ScienceBlogs is coming to an end. With purely circular photons, transferred angular momentum is 2n*hbar (since flipped state doubles effect.) No, during a conference in London. But Wigner, I think in '36 or `37, did apply the group theory methods to the structure of nuclei, and in fact his papers were exceedingly important and exceedingly good. Well, perhaps I may cite an example of fallibility which I suppose later on must have given you some joy that you were wrong? An important point which had been discovered, and I think suggested, I don't remember by whom, was the idea of the metastable level. And then Bohr went back to Princeton, and Bohr and Wheeler worked out the theory of the fission reaction. Årbog, Københavns Universitet, 1993, p. 513. Now, I am very vague how this came to my attention. I just don't know. The inventors also found other evidence—namely, they found evidence for high angular momentum of nucleons in certain cases. 1, Bianco, Lunos, Copenhagen 1869. And I think it has two great points. And if you assumed that, then you get this discrepancy. It had to be introduced by logic, t was introduced; and it explained the results of experiments on the polarization of neutrons when scattered—neutrons of some 10 MeV, 5 MeV, 20 MeV, when scattered by nuclei. I am surprised that I did not have papers with Konopinski. If you do take this into account, then you are led to believe that the radius of a nucleus is much bigger than was then generally believed. Can I ask a question on this point? It was the bicentennial conference. There is also Bohr the philosopher, the administrator, the fundraiser, the catalyst in promoting physical applications to biology, the helper of political refugees, the co-founder of international physics institutes as well as the nuclear power projects in Denmark, and, last but not least, the devoted family man. 8. What were the centers then? Western European exact science was in its infancy then; Copernicus was only a boy of six. This is all it did, but this was quite a lot. Marshak and Sudarshan suggested that these be redone, and they were redone and found wrong. I cannot invent something out of nothing. In fact, I think with the advent of pion physics, the great majority of the former nuclear physicists, both experimental and theoretical, switched over to meson physics and high-energy physics. I don't any longer. One of them was the history of the beta decay. Breit and Wigner very soon afterwards developed the dispersion formula for cross sections with closely–spaced nuclei. It is also here as a Professor in the University of Padua that he invented mechanical devices. It was quite a good time for work. So transitions were classified, multiple transitions. There has been a second interaction—namely, high energy physics has discovered a lot of other mesons. I think Wigner was one of the first to write down this tensor interaction, and nobody questioned that you had to take a Hamiltonian of even parity. All this was using the theory of the compound nucleus. What brought you to Berkeley that summer? You referred to a subsequent paper that you wrote of more importance on this subject. So when I heard that he had a book coming out about this stuff, How the Hippies Saved Physics, I jumped at the chance to get a review copy. It was sponsored by the Physical Society. But it certainly is one of my best papers. This is what I'm getting at there. Then the second feeling I had—and I was going to talk about this— is that we learned a great deal about nuclear structure in the late '30s which was different from the shell model, if I may say—namely, the Wigner model which talks about the symmetry of the wave function more than the shells occupied by the nucleons and then the compound nucleus. I don't remember very much about this. The bibliography reflected that, and it shows that you were collaborating, as you indicated, with Rose quite a bit during this period. In 1936 Bohr himself came forth with his “liquid drop model” of the atomic nucleus,24 of which Hans Bethe has written: “(This model) dominated the theory of nuclear reactions at least from 1936 to 1954 . think perhaps this is the point to get back to the project ... think I would like to take up one more point here. Of course one should really turn it around. With that glimpse into the future, we'll try to get you now back to the past. O. At that time you were between England and Italy. On the whole, the war was an interruption of the development and an interruption even of thinking. Let's assume that the nucleons are subjected to an ellipsoidal potential and calculate their energy levels," and by doing this he gave very nice quantitative results—just how the deformation should take place, under what conditions, what should be the quantum numbers of the nucleons in this case and how much should the deformation be.

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